4. Muhammad ibn al-Hasan ibn Ahmad ibn al-Walid said: Muhammad ibn al-Hasan alSaffar said on the authority of Ibrahim ibn Hashim, on the authority of Muhammad ibn Hammad, on the authority of al-Hasan ibn Ibrahim, on the authority of Yunus ibn `Abd alRahman, on the authority of Yunus ibn Ya`qub that `Ali ibn Mansur reported to me that Hisham ibn al-Hakam reported to me that An atheist in Egypt was informed of some knowledge from Abu `Abd Allah al-Sadiq so he left for Medina to debate with him. However, he did not find him. It was said to him: “He is in Mecca.” So the atheist left for Mecca. While we were with Abu `Abd Allah , the atheist came close to us while we were circumambulating [tawaf] the Ka`bah. The atheist bumped shoulders with Abu `Abd Allah , so the Imam asked him “What is your name?” He replied, “My name is `Abd al-Malik.” The Imam said: “Then what is your agnomen [kunya]?” He answered, “Abu `Abd Allah.” The Imam asked, “Who is the Sovereign (al-Malik) whom you serve? Is He the Sovereign of the Heavens, or is he one of the sovereigns of the earth? And tell me about your son. Is the servant [`abd] of the God of Heaven, or a god of the earth?” The atheist kept quiet. So Abu `Abd Allah continued, “Say whatever you wish to, you will be defeated.” Hisham ibn al-Hakam says: Isaid to the atheist: “Will you not refute him?” Thus, he disliked what I said. Therefore, Abu `Abd Allah said to him, “Once I complete the circumambulation, come and see me.” Once Abu `Abd Allah finished, the atheist came to him and sat down in front of him, while we had gathered before him. Thus, he addressed the atheist, “Do you know that the earth has a top and a bottom?” He replied, “I do not know, but I certainly think there is nothing below it.” Abu `Abd Allah said: “Thinking [zann] is incapability unless you achieve certainty. Have you ascended to the heavens?” He answered, “No.” The Imam asked, Then do you know what is in it?” He replied, “I do not.” The Imam said: “Then have you been to the east and the west and seen what is behind them?” He replied, “No.” The Imam responded, How strange! You have not been to the east or the west. You have not descended below the earth. You have not ascended to heaven. You do not have any knowledge of what surrounds them. However, you re in denial of what is in them. Does a wise man deny what he knows not? The atheist said: “No one but you has eve said such a thing to me.” Abu `Abd Allah said: “You are in doubt as to whether He exist or not.” The atheist replied, “That might be it.” Abu `Abd Allah said: O man! There is no authority for the one who knows over the one who knows not. Likewise, there is no authority for the ignorant over the learned. O my Egyptian brother! Understand this from me! We never doubt in Allah. Do you not see the sun and the moon, and the night and day? They have recourse, but they do not make mistakes. They come and they go. They are both compelled. There is not place for them except their own place. If they both had the power to leave, and not come back, then why do they come back? If they both are not compelled, then why does the night change into the day, and the day into night? By Allah, O Egyptian brother, they are both compelled to continue their routine. Surely, their Compeller is Wiser and Greater than they are! The atheist said: “You are right.” Abu `Abd Allah then said: O Egyptian brother! They way you atheists reason is wrong. Time does not bring anything into existence. If the passage of time can take then away, then why does it not return them? And if the passage of time can return them, when why does it not take them away? They are compelled, O Egyptian brother! The sky has been raised, and the earth has been set down. Why is it that the sky does not collide with the earth? And why is it that the earth does not collide with the sky? Why is it that the earth does not go out of its orbit? Who holds them together and who holds together what is between them? The atheist said: “By Allah! Their Lord and their Master holds them together!” Thus, the atheist came to believe through his contact with Abu `Abd Allah . Humran ibn A`yun said to him . “May I be your ransom! Atheist become believers through you, just like the unbelievers use to become believer through your father .” The believer, who had believed thanks to Abu `Abd Allah , said: “Make me of your students.” Abu `Abd Allah said to Hisham ibn al-Hakam, “Take him with you and teach him.” Thus, Hisham taught him, and then he became the teacher of the Egyptians, and the people of the northern region (Syria, Jordan, Palestine and Lebanon). He was trained spiritually and academically until Abu `Abd Allah was pleased with it.