4. Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father from those whom mentioned from Yunus ibn Ya’qub who has said the following. “I was in the presence of Imam abu ‘Abdallah that a man from Sham (Syria) came to him and said, ‘I am a man of Kalam (meaningful words) Fiqh (laws) and rules of obligations and I have come to debate your people.” Imam abu ‘Abdallah asked, “ Are your meaningful words those of the Messenger of Allah or your own words?” He replied, “Somme of them are from the Messenger of Allah and some of them are my own words.” The Imam said, “Are then you a partner of the Messenger of Allah?” He said, “No, I am not.” The Imam asked, “Have you received any revelation from Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High ?” He said, “No, I have not.” The Imam then asked, “Is it obligatory to obey you just as it is obligatory to obey the Messenger of Allah?” He said, “No, it is not.” The Imam then turned to me and said, “O Yunus, this man has just defeated himself before debating others.” The Imam then said, “O Yunus, why do you not speak to him if you do well in debate?” I said, “I wish I could but, may Allah take my soul in the service for your cause, I have heard that you do not allow debating and say that wayl (a place in hell) is for those who debate. Some of them say, ‘This is accepted and that is not accepted and this is alright to say but that is not alright to say that this we understand and that we do not understand.’ The Imam said, “I said so if they would ignore what I say and follow what they themselves want.” The Imam then said, “find out who is outside who could debate and bring them in. The reporter has said, “I then brought in Humran ibn ’Ayun who was good in debating, Ahwal who also was good in debate. I brought Hisham ibn Salim who debated well. Another person I brought was Qays ibn Masir who the best of them to me. He had learned Kalam (theology) from Imam Ali ibn al-Husayn Our gathering took place in Makka before Hajj. Imam abu ‘Abdallah would stay near the Holy Mosque for few days in a small tent. Once the Imam looked outside the tent and there was a camel growling and said, “By the Lord of the Ka‘ba, it is Hisham.” We thought it must be Hisham, the man from the family of ‘Qil who was very beloved to the Imam . It was Hisham ibn al-Hakam who came in. He had just grown a small beard and all of us were older than him. The Imam made room for him and said, “He is our supporter with his heart, tongue and hands.” The Imam then asked Humran to debate the man. Humran came out strong. Then the Imam asked Taqi to debate the man. Ahwal also came strong. Then the Imam asked Hisham ibn Salim to debate the man. They both remained the same. The Imam then asked Qasys al-Masir to debate the man. When they debated the Imam laughed because of the man from Sham sometimes saying the right thing. The Imam then asked the man from to speak with Hisham ibn al-Hakam. The man said, “O boy, ask me about the Imamat (spiritual leadership) of this man.” Hisham become angry and began to shake and said, “O you, is your Lord more protective of His people or people themselves?” The man said, “It is My Lord Who is more protective of His creatures.” Hisham then asked, “What then He in His opinion has done for them?” The Man said, “He has established His authority and guidance so that they would not differ and disunite and be united to support each other and remind them of their duties towards Allah.” Hisham asked, “Who is he?” The man said, “He is the Messenger of Allah.” Hisham then asked, “Who is the Divine authority after the Messenger of Allah?” The man replied, “It is the book if Allah and the Sunnah.” Hisham then said, “Have the Book and Sunnah helped us today in removing our differences?” The man said, “Yes, they have helped us.” Hisham then asked, “Why then do we have differences among us. You have come all the way from Sham to oppose and debate us?” The man then remained quite. The Imam asked him, “Why do not speak?” The man said, “If I were to say that we have no differences I would speaking lies. Were I to say that the Book and Sunnah solves our differences it would be invalid because they can be interpreted in so many ways. Were I to say that we do have differences and each claims to be the rightful party then the Book and the Sunnah would have been proved of no help. However, I can ask the same question from him also.” The Imam then said to man from Sham, “Why do not then ask him this question?” The man from Sham (Syria) then turned to Hisham and asked, “O you, is your Lord more protective of His people or people themselves?” Hisham said, “It is My Lord Who is more protective of His creatures.” The man then asked, “Has He then established for them a means that would remove their differences, unite them, remove their difficulties and show them the right from wrong?” Hisham asked, “Do you mean for the time of the Messenger of Allah or at this time?” The man from Sham said, “At the time of the Messenger of Allah was the Messenger of Allah. Who is the (Divine) authority at this time?” Hisham said, “(The Divine authority) at this time is this person sitting among us. To him people journey long distance to find answer to their questions. He tells us about the news of the heavens and the earth as he has inherited it from his father and grand father.” The man from Sham said, “How would I know that?” Hisham then said, “Ask him whatever you would like.” The man from Sham said, “You have left no excuse for me and I must ask.” Imam abu ‘Abdallah then said, “O man from Sham, “I can tell you how was your journey and how was your road. It was so and so.” The Imam informed him with details. The man agreed and acknowledged the details and said, “Now I have become a Muslim.” The Imam said, “In fact, you have become a believer in Allah now. Islam is before Iman (faith). Because of Islam people inherit each other and marry. Because of faith people receive rewards.” The man then said, “You have spoken the truth. At this time I testify that there is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad is His Messenger and that you are the executor of the will of the Executor of wills of the Messengers of Allah.” The Imam then turned to Humran and said, “When you speak on the basis of Hadith you speak the truth.” Turning to Hisham ibn Salim the Imam said, “You want the Hadith but you do not know them.” About the al-Ahwal the Imam said, “You analogized and use a great deal of cunning ways and break falsehood with falsehood but your falsehood is stronger.” To Qays al-Masir the Imam said, “You speak of something very near to the Hadith of the Holy Prophet ﷺ but use something very far from the Hadith of the Holy Prophet. You mix the truth with falsehood while a small degree of truth is enough to remove falsehood. You and Ahwal are experts in jumping here and there.” Yunus has said, “I thought the Imam will say about Hisham something similar to those he said about the other two.” The Imam then said, “O Hisham, you sometimes almost fall but you spring up like a bird on take-off. People like you should speak but be careful of slipping and intercession will follow, Allah willing.”